Emily Hersh, mining entrepreneur and gifted raconteur, joins us to talk all things lithium. Our conversation was so long and wide-ranging we had to split it into two parts. In part one, we discuss how she got started in the lithium industry and the geopolitics of lithium in South America. Make sure to check out Emily's podcast, The Minerals Manhattan Project, here: https://www.mineralsmanhattanproject.com/
Emily Hersh, mining entrepreneur and gifted raconteur, joins us to talk all things lithium. Our conversation was so long and wide-ranging we had to split it into two parts. In part one, we discuss how she got started in the lithium industry and the geopolitics of lithium in South America. Make sure to check out Emily's podcast, The Minerals Manhattan Project, here: https://www.mineralsmanhattanproject.com/
Ben: Welcome to Cell Siders. A look at the business and technology of batteries from the cell side of things. Today, we're joined by our special guest, Emily Hersch, Emily. Thanks so much for coming on
Emily Hersh: Cell Siders. No guys. Thanks for, thanks for inviting me. I'm really excited to be on the other side of the podcasting mic for, for a change.It's very relaxing
Ben Returning from a secret mission, the solid state Spaniard himself, Jordi Sastre. Jordi, glad to have you back this week.
Jordi Sastre: Hi Ben. Hi Emily. Hi, Mr. L. Great joining you today.
Ben: And last but not least here to take us beyond the basic, the assiduous, Mr. Litmus, Mr. L, glad to see you again this week.
Mr. Litmus: Hey guys
Ben: I normally give a short description of the guests during the introduction, but Emily, your resume is so lengthy and varied. It kind of defies summary. So, can you just walk us through your career and tell us how you got to where you are today? Yeah,
Emily Hersh: Absolutely. So, um, I'm originally from the Washington DC area.
I did my, my education as an economist. Um, didn't want to live my life behind the desk. So young, dumb and adventurous. I moved to Argentina where I, when I was about 24 and, um, Started my own business and started doing some consulting in the oil and gas industry, which led to doing consulting in the mining industry.
Um, and I never looked back to oil and gas. The minute I took one, look at mining and I worked for about two years putting together and working on gold projects and reach to reach the point where I kind of, uh, decided that gold was a philosophically unsatisfying and fundamentally silly exercise. Given that we spend a lot of time, energy and money to dig gold up from under a mountain only to put it into a basement somewhere else, which is fine.
Um, but I, it sort of peaked my interest in, in lithium. And so at the age of about 28, I set out to learn as much as I possibly could about lithium and especially the, the lithium extraction and the. Importance of lithium extraction to the part of south America that I had chosen to live, which is Argentina.
Um, so I, I got some consulting work for both battery companies looking to sell large batteries to mines and off-grid solutions. And also companies looking at lithium exploration and lithium extraction, um, have sort of her. Parlayed, I guess that expertise into doing a lot of speaking and a lot of, um, a lot of work, both for investors and then for companies, and then also for putting together early stage projects in the lithium exploration space.
Um, that's. Led to doing a podcast on lithium doing a podcast. So I call the minerals Manhattan project, um, and turning my business area more towards sort of two areas because once you get into lithium and once you get into batteries, you realize that it's, it's a number of different supply chains in a number of very.
Very different areas of expertise that are required to bring together, to understand, to get your mind around or to get a perception of what the lithium and what the raw material side really means to the battery industry. And so I've turned. To being an adventurous and extreme person. I'm very focused currently on two extremes, one extreme being the early stage exploration and looking at new deposits or looking at how to create economic, lithium extraction projects.
From new deposits or from deposits that maybe previously weren't economic under other technologies. And then also very much at what's happening in the cell and really focusing that energy on what's a next generation battery going to look like, how are we going to move to batteries that have lithium metal and are able to get the energy density?
Um, Energy density benefits or energy density and safety benefits that you get from using, you know, just one layer of, of lithium metal in a battery rather than the entire Catholic that's basically raise on debt is to keep all the lithium happy in a battery. And then how does that impact physical supply chains?
So when, when you look at what the supply chain looks like now, for a lot of these lithium, either lithium chemicals or chemicals that are coming into a battery to support the Lithium's existence in it, how does. The ability or how does an ability to look at what's the next generation battery and what will that mean for physical supply chains?
It's really where I'm focusing currently. So I'm putting together a lithium exploration project, and then I advise. Companies that are on the advanced technology side to help them build into their business models. Now, a deep understanding of what the commercialization of their technology would mean for physical supply chains and what relationships need to be built today in order to be in a position to support that.
Ben: Man. There's a ton to chew on there and hopefully we get the time to go through all of it. I want to circle back to sort of where you started. We had Joe Lowry on the podcast a few weeks ago and he, uh, you know, he's a global lithium. Sort of expert in connoisseur in a way, but he also said that he started in gold and gold mining.
Um, and so what is it that leads naturally from gold to lithium?
Emily Hersh: I don't think there's anything that leads naturally from gold to lithium. I mean, in my case, you know, I'm an entrepreneur, I've always had my own business and, and I'm, you know, it becomes my job at the end of the day to go where it's a good idea and.
And being responsible for investors money in many cases, to take their money in, in those directions. You know, I still do gold projects. And from a, from a market standpoint, when you look at, you know, gold versus lithium, people are into lithium. When they're hopeful, people are into gold when they think the world's going to hell.
So they aren't really. Uh, bad, bad businesses to keep a foot in both. But I think that you'll see a number of experts because the lithium story is young and the lithium story is new. You'll see people that have found their way into lithium have to find their way through expertise develops in other areas.
And so, yeah. Uh, you know, my expertise in understanding gold was really based on understanding new gold deposits or understanding gold exploration and understanding, you know, what does an early stage deposit look like? That warrants additional exploration. Um, but I was also very struck by how different the physical gold market looks to the lithium chemical industry.
And that's one of the. Major differences that I think a lot of traditional commodities folks don't quite capture about lithium and this idea that lithium chemicals aren't priced based on how much lithium they contain. And lithium chemicals are not fungible among buyers. Whereas, you know, if it let's say that you had a gold mine and I had a gold mine and we sold our concentrator, we sold our doorway to a refinery and then they sold it along to a banker jewelry company.
They would make SAR gold. Together, and it wouldn't make any difference at the end of the day. And lithium fundamentally doesn't behave like that. And I found it to be very interesting watching, kind of, um, watching the market or watching the more financial sides of the market. Try to make lithium behave like that when.
The reality is you don't refine lithium. You don't smell it with him and you don't mix pure lithium from one supplier and another to send it out to final customer. And so I think taking, taking not just experiences that are applicable to other markets, but having a. Having a history or having a knowledge of an industry and seeing where lithium will never behave that way is a real benefit or, or is a real value to providing meaningful insights into how the lithium market is going to come together.
Ben: You mentioned that you moved to Argentina at a young age and you've been, you know, based a lot in south America. I'm really curious what the lithium industry looks like on the ground in south America. Um, the sort of. From a, from a sort of mine level perspective or from a social perspective, from a political perspective, how has the industry developing in south America and how do, uh, Argentinians or, uh, You know, residents of those countries see the industry, um, how do they think about it?
How do policy makers plan for it? Like what does it look like from a ground level?
Emily Hersh: That's a good question. And it's complicated. And so I think. You know, you can find similarities between south American countries. You know, you've got a lithium deposit in Peru. You've got lithium chemical production in Chile and Argentina.
You've got a very famous lithium deposit in Bolivia. Um, and so. Lithium has been a very large part of the national conversation, which is very interesting given that it's not a large part of any of these countries GDPs. So one of the comparisons that I like to make in Chile is that. For as much, um, for as much noise as the lithium industry generates politically and socially, you really could compare it to the almond industry and the almond industry or the fishing industry is, is, is a bigger industry in Chile.
It's a larger source of revenue for the country. And so, you know, the same, same in Argentina. Um, and the same, you know, in Bolivia, if you look at the potential for the lithium industry next to, for example, the zinc and the 10 industry and Bolivia, it almost disappear. And so lithium really is a much larger part of the social and political conversation in these countries than it is realistically apart.
Of there at least at a country level, their economies. Now, when you go more locally and you look at more specific, you know, but the, one of the. I think an important piece of cultural consideration to have in mind is the history of mining and Latin America is very much tied to the history of colonization, right?
So the Latin America was colonized to mine and extract and take metals. And so when approaching. Uh, social license to operate or a SU approaching ideas of, of political acceptance for, and political support for mining. I think a lot of companies sometimes don't understand that a lot of the reactions from these countries might be emotionally motivated.
And that's a real thing that happens in the world. You know, it's the same as someone in the United States might be triggered or emotionally triggered by something related to nine 11. The, the history of mineral extraction in Latin America is a, in a long perspective as a history that has. Emotional ties to the idea of colonization.
And so that really drives this desire in Latin America to say, okay, with lithium, we want to do it differently. We want to add more value locally, and that's a great concept, but then when it's time for the rubber to hit the road, and as you guys understand far more superiorly than I'd say I do the minute you get.
Past an extraction point. When we're talking about lithium and lithium chemicals, we're talking about an extremely high technology process and a need to have very high levels of specification and qualification. Um, and then when you're looking at layering that with the fact that a lot of these deposits are.
Kindly they're really out of the way. And as a criticism directly of these countries, the infrastructure is really, really bad. So you're looking at deposits that are located at high altitudes. You're looking at dirt roads that turned to mud for huge portions of time of the year. You're looking at the inability to get reliable access for chemical reagents, chemical reagents of high quality.
And you're looking at energy challenges. That are, you know, you can back the envelope, a project and say, y'all, don't have the energy. So, so it is a complex conversation and it's a conversation that. You know, everybody wants to see an announcement, you know, perfect examples. You know, BMW has now said, they're looking at considering making batteries in Catamarca, but when you do the math and say, is there, are there the physical prerequisites to do this activity there?
Aren't and then are these governments going to kick in? The tremendous amount of investment that's needed for this infrastructure. And this is where you get back to, especially given that the lithium industry will not be a short-term money-maker for them. It's complicated.
Mr. Litmus: I think, I think you bring, you bring like, so much perspective onto the floor over here with regards to the kind of governance that is required, the kind of investment that is required for the board. Right.
Mr. Litmus: Every leading automaker. Every leading government is in the, in the world is basically putting out these notices that, Hey, we want to go all electric by 2030. Hey, we want to eliminate the sales of all combustion grade vehicles by 2030. For that to really happen. The entire lithium supply chain needs to be overhauled with the billion dollar plus investments, like to never seen four gigafactories itself.
Do you think that, uh, these are conditions for the perfect storm for. The lithium extraction to be, uh, really capitalized on in these regions where they can get past the stigma associated with early colonizations of, um, mining extraction and dirty look at lithium extraction as dead, basically golden ticket out of, uh, and into the next phase of development for their countries.
Emily Hersh: I mean, I would like that to happen. Um, but I also think that we're, and I globally, not just in Latin America, we're in a, a world of kind of very extreme polarization and, you know, leans to either a far, far right or far, far left government style. And that is a, you know, it's a brand of populism that capitalizes on anger and wants to show short-term results.
And I, I think that. When you look at where we've gotten with the gigafactories and work, where we've gotten with these billion dollar investments, you know, right now it's, it's huge. But when you look at how long it took us to get there, that was a long period of time and capital needs to be deployed patiently and over these long periods of time, um, and.
A long term capital investment that at the end of the day, isn't focused on, you know, these Latin American countries, their governments are making promises to their people locally that they're going to make batteries in these places. Um, and that requires not only investment. I mean, you'd have to import and, and, you know, eat just first, make cathode and anode and electrolyte to do that.
There it's it's it's. Technically unfeasible, even if you had the capital to make it happen and do it at a loss, it would still take huge, huge periods of time. Um, and so I see it more as a, uh, probably don't like to say perfect storm. And I, I I'm, I'm a very positive person. I think that there's a lot of great things that can come out of this, but when you.
Set expectations among a population that are totally out of line with what is realistically feasible. And plus these countries that I bring up the stigma of, of, of colonization, because it's where this mentality of, if we just extract and ship. We're repeating problems of the past mentality comes from.
So it's, it's that mentality. And that reason that drives some of these political leaders. And that's why that message catches on so deeply in, in some of these countries is because they're like, I want to make batteries. I, and I, I've given this presentation in English and Spanish, and I'll continue to give this presentation that, you know, lithium in the battery cell physically, it doesn't, you know, the lithium in a Tesla is about the size of one fat cat.
You know, that's, that's your, your metric. And in terms of cost, I mean, lithium probably represents somewhere between seven and 15% of the final cost of a battery. And so. You know, that being said, the PA the, the presidential candidate who says I'm going to make batteries in the middle of, you know, this muddy 5,000 meter of altitude place that has no electricity is going to win.
You know, it it's what it is. So, so how does Latin America, how do Latin American countries move beyond that? You know, maybe you find. You know, political leadership, that's able to deliver a message like that, but also with moderation or with, with an idea that, you know, we have to become a major chemical exporter, and then we can incentivize companies to reinvest that or increase the value added in country.
You know, there's, if you know, there's a lot of ways that could happen, but it's not the direction. I see the political forces shaping the world. Uh, you know, going in, um, and you know, it's, when you look at Argentina specifically right now, you know, Argentina has got a dual exchange, right. That dual exchange, right.
And the fact that their central bank is literally out of foreign currency and will be for at least two years to come, you know, is going to drive companies to go in the other direction, which is going to drive companies to export the lowest cost. Material the lowest value material possible because that's the only way you can handle CR you know, currency or structure.
Mr. Litmus: Yeah. Effectively Argentina has, has come into this dual exchange rate, uh, primarily because of investments from, from China, right?
Emily Hersh: No, I mean, so Argentina, this is when I moved to Argentina 11 years ago. Um, Argentina was just embarking on a chapter of dual exchange rates. And so what happens is as, as, as the Argentine government, You know, essentially subsidizes a lot of things.
Locally energy prices, subsidizes water prices, subsidizes, you know, they're, they it's complex. But basically the only source that Argentina has a foreign exchange is from exports. And so they only get access to foreign exchange through exporting soy, exporting commodities, et cetera. And. When that isn't enough, they set the exchange rate artificially low, and that essentially becomes a tax on money moving in and out.
But it's, it's an unsustainable problem. And, you know, last time it ended when mockery got elected and he spent a bunch of money paid off the, you know, the foreign investors that hadn't gotten paid and was able to get for, you know, for an investment. Eh, to, to normalize the currency, but then, you know, when to the government pays more money out than it brings in, and then it, you know, it's split again before mockery even left office.
And when it splits, everything gets complicated. It doesn't mean it's not survivable. That doesn't mean all companies in Argentina are going to go belly up, but it becomes a lot more complicated. And it's a, it's the type of problem that kind of infects and leeches its way into everything else in the economy.
Jordi Sastre: Let me ask a question. Going back to lithium in these countries and looking into the future, like imagine in 50 years, like all cars are electric. Like we're flying in planes that are powered by batteries. Do you think that lithium mining is going to become a significant part of the GDP of such countries, or is it still going to be a small, small percentage of the GDP? And what are the geopolitical implications of such a, if, if it becomes a very important part of the GDP of the country, would we see, for example, wars, the lithium wars, like we have seen the oil wars?
Emily Hersh: Um, that's a good question. Uh, I could see it becoming a significant part of GDP in those countries. And I think that as. As more electric mobility is on the road. Like it's, it would be a good idea. For example, you could make everybody happy by, you know, essentially starting to do battery assembly, pack assembly for, for electric buses and things like that.
More locally, it's the, from a political standpoint, doing more activities locally will make people happier and also. You know, seeing the results of it. Right? So it's, it's, it's a very hard sell to say like, oh, your, your, your lithium is going, you know, oh, Bolivians, you should be really happy that your lithium is going to make a Tesla.
And it's like, you, I don't have a Tesla. I don't have money for food. Like why, why do I care? You know, that's not a, that's not a compelling argument, but as you can see some of the benefits of these advanced technologies being more affordable and more available in some of these countries, I think, you know, and also as the lithium market grows and it becomes part of the GDP, a war for lithium, uh, there's lithium everywhere.
And I think it's probably. In 50 years, it'll be cheaper to take lithium out of the ocean than to go have a war in Bolivia. I mean, wars are expensive. No one likes them. And it's really difficult to run an advanced, sophisticated chemical plant with access to international logistics in a war zone. I would guess I haven't tried it, but it's not on my to-do list.
Ben: We had a John from the Advanced Propulsion Center UK on, um, and his perspective on the battery cell manufacturer facilities in Britain, he said very clearly for Britain. At least if you don't have cell manufacturer in your country, the auto industry will leave that in his view. It's an essential component of a local automotive supply chain.
Um, what does the automotive supply chain. More generally look like in Latin America. And is there that similar necessity to have local manufacturer for, uh, electric vehicles in south America? Or is that just not a priority yet?
Emily Hersh: I think you're going to see cell manufacturing before. You'd see. I mean, so if you look at this, you know, from the ground.
To the car. Right. Um, I think that I'm one of the reason I'm kind of drawn to the ends from an entrepreneurial standpoint is once you get closer to the middle, so you get into your catheter, I know making and your cell manufacturing and your, your assembly, and even your Evie, you know, the car companies, those are big players.
Those are, uh, they move more like elephants, right? You don't want nimble. Players at the middle of that supply chain, because they need access to large amounts of capital, the ability to deploy it for long periods of time and the ability to hit levels of scale. Um, so it's a different animal than you will then you're, you know, you're entrepreneurs.
Um, but I think that yes, and is how I'd answer that question. I think when you look at the, the battery supply chain to get into a vehicle it's really important to have an ecosystem. Minded approach. So for example, when you look at, you know, the approach of the Chinese government, when they decided to become a battery superpower, they didn't just go and say, I want that one cell manufacturer here, or I want that cathode maker there.
They kind of threw a net around the ecosystem and realized that, you know, these. Companies all have to work together to make a high quality, low cost material and the relationships and ability of these companies to kind of communicate and be in the position to, you know, eat all these giant elephants, having to make changes together, to, to advance.
You need to get them all. And whether you get one first and then the other one, you know, the other first, and then the first one doesn't matter, the ecosystem needs to come together and the ecosystem needs to form around, you know, there has to be a first mover. And so looking at, you know, talking to it, if, you know, talking to an automaker and saying, who are your major suppliers?
Go after those major suppliers and ask them who are your major suppliers and get them because the ecosystem has to come together because it looking a great example of this, right? A perfect example of the need to have an ecosystem minded. And yet the car company might say our major supplier is that cell maker, but that cell maker's not gonna move there in less.
Their ecosystem comes with them. And so you have to take that approach when looking at how to shift or how to reorient the supply chain globally. Uh, and a great example is, you know, Chile, one of the biggest, you know, I'd say the biggest producer of high quality lithium chemicals in the world at least couple of years ago.
And I'm not listen guys. I'm I, my, my, my analyst hat has been off to make room for my entrepreneur hat. So if I'm off on a few numbers, please don't boo me on the internet. Um, but. Chili undertook, uh, you know, based on this desire to add more value in country, based on political pressure to be like, we don't want to just be a raw material supplier.
We want to move along. The supply chain really undertook a very serious effort to attract cathode making to Catholic production, Catherine manufactured to Chile, and the, the sort of the, the, the carrots that they tried to offer was, you know, access to. Low costs, lithium chemicals, access to, you know, to good tax infrastructure access to, you know, they had the pieces that they thought should pull that one piece.
And, you know, they attracted Pasco. They attracted a number of. The best lithium cathode makers in the world to consider it. But at the end of the day, it didn't come together. And I believe that a big part of that is because it doesn't even with those benefits, it doesn't make sense for those cathode makers to be so far from the rest of their ecosystem.
You know, in addition to lithium chemicals, they need to be able to acquire, you know, nickel, sulfate, cobalt, sulfate, and they need to. B with the, you know, with the pack with the group. Um, and so I think, yeah, for the automaker, maybe the cell manufacturers, that key part, but to get that cell manufacturer, you're going to have to ask him or her what their key parts are to make it happen.
Mr. Litmus: So with that in mind, like what, uh, where do you foresee as the future? For lithium extraction and lithium specialty chemicals. Rightly you just mentioned that it makes more sense for all of these component battery cell component manufacturers, to be closer to that our delivery sites, just having. The biggest source of these lithium chemicals away from the major centers of battery component manufacturing. What does that future look like for you?
Emily Hersh: The lithium mine is the only thing you can't move. Right? Fact, um, and the further you get to the final product, the more. Strict your standards are, or to flip that around, the more difficult it is to do in a place that's difficult to operate in, you know, the more important the, the, you know, just the more important.
The need for extra purity, the more important the need for extra cleanliness, the more important the need for was just you, you, you get closer to a lab and further from a mine. Um, I think that the, one of the trends that I see shaping. The lithium extraction space is sort of a question of, are we going to move away from a mega project mentality, right?
Are our, the extraction companies or the mineral extraction companies going to want, you know, the types of mega projects that are able to supply a large. Portion of the market or are they going to prefer, you know, medium sized projects in better jurisdictions that you can add more value locally quickly without it being a political, you know, snafu?
I mean, but laying, I mean, remember. That laying on top of this is the, the growth that the lithium market, you know, even in your most conservative predictions has to achieve. And so, and I'm not saying there isn't room for, you know, any perfectly fine project that gets there. Am I allowed to swear on this podcast?
I should have asked that I'm not going to stop you. Okay. Listen. There's there's roof. All right. There's room for every perfectly fine lithium project that can get their shit together. Right. There's. But that, that being said, the market doesn't need every project, because if you can't get gesture together, there is a slightly less good project that can come and take your place.
And it's perfectly fine. Um, I think that, and, and, you know, I would be happy if history proves me wrong on this one, but, you know, I think that approaches like the one. Being taken by the Bolivian government is not in line with the reality of the fact that there is more lithium available. Other places if people are willing to pay a little bit more, um, and, and kind of looking at that it's, it's the.
Growing importance of ESG from both the investor standpoint. And then also the end user standpoint is pressuring a more metrics focused approach on, on, you know, rather than saying I'm a green project, you have to say I've done a life cycle assessment. And the carbon footprint of my project is 30. So real metrics that can be prepared.
And I believe that those metrics are going to be what gives some projects, access to preferable pools of capital. So I think that that. Metric and the need for lithium projects to demonstrate their environmental abilities to a actual science metric and not to a sort of, you know, a greenwashed or kind of a, a loosey goosey pretty slide at the end of a PowerPoint presentation is going to drive changes in the market.
And then on top of that, when you look at, um, social license to operate, you're seeing. Carmakers you're seeing some of the biggest car makers in the world say we're only going to buy from supply chains that are, are involved with projects that have the Irma standard that have an actual standard of, you know, this is informed consent from the population.
And so I think that projects that are able to demonstrate both an environmentally friendly extraction process and environmentally friendly. PR PR production process. And then also are able to demonstrate, you know, again that they didn't just throw a school. That's an old, you know, an old container from one of their boxes and be like, oh, why doesn't the community?
Like us, those projects are going to be able to access. Pools of capital that other projects aren't and those projects are going to be able to sell into supply chains that have those standards. And I think that that is going to shift how not to Salinium industry, but how the mining industry operates.
And I think it's a shift that's a long time coming and I'm here for it.
Jordi Sastre: Uh, you said that the only thing that can't be moved is the lithium mine, but then you have Elon Musk saying, coming up on stage and saying that he will produce lithium from clay in the Nevada desert next door to their giga factory.
What are your thoughts on this?
Emily Hersh: Um, there is a lot of lithium in the Nevada sediments. That's true. Um, he's the thing about his. Per pronouncement that kind of doesn't sit right with me is that he said, he's going to do it like this using table salt and using sodium chloride to leach, lithium from sediments is a very energy intensive process.
That's a fact. And so if Elon Musk is going to do that, he has to solve that energy problem, but maybe he will. But it's, I don't think it would. It's, it's interesting. And it's important for sure, but it's not going to happen quickly. And I would love to see the science behind how he's solving the energy intensity of that flow sheet.
Right. So I think a lot of folks that look at the raw material side of the battery industry who come from more of the, the sell side, um, You know, you can, it's publicly available information to go through the, the flow sheets or the proposed flow sheets of any company that's publicly listed in Canada and Australia.
And so you can go through the journey that some of those projects took to get to the flow sheet that they decided to work with and understand very quickly that the idea of using sodium chloride to leach lithium from a, from a sediment, from a clay. Is tech is technology exists and the reason it doesn't work or the reason it's not economic or feasible is because it takes a long time and it's energy intensive.
And so do I think that Tesla might be able to find a solution to that? You know, if they're doing something else, that's really energy intensive. Yeah, it it's, it makes me think that Tesla, Tesla, as a company has a lot more playing pieces on the board. Right? So Tesla as a company and you know, the Elon Musk, uh, ecosystem for lack of a better word, you know, you've got spaceships, you've got electric cars, you've got tunnels, you've got dog money, you know, so, so the way the world looks from somebody who's playing.
That game is going to look different than it looks from someone who doesn't have those pieces on the table. And that, that that'd be great. That'd be fantastic.
Ben: That's all we have time for this week. Our conversation with Emily Hirsch continues next time. So stay tuned. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and share on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
If you have questions, you'd like our battery experts to answer. Please tweet at us. Our handle is at cell siders. That's C E L L S I D E R S. Our theme music was composed by Seneca. You can be had on Twitter under at music underscore Seneca. Thanks very much for listening. We'll see you next week. .